MGG Pillai Commentary View

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MGG on ABC Asia Pacific TV on the Anwar Factor, and with an Anwar interview

Australian Broadcasting Corporation - Asia Pacific Television

Transcript

First Broadcast - September 22, 2004 Episode 23: The Anwar Factor

In this week's episode of The Editors, panellists MGG Pillai, Steven Gan, Editor-in-chief, Malaysiakini and Zoher Abdoolcarim, Senior Editor with Time Asia analyse how the release of Anwar Ibrahim will influence Malaysian politics. In part two of our interview with Anwar, the former deputy prime minister of Malaysia talks about militant Islam. Also our regular commentator on China, Willy Lam looks at the recent elections in Hong Kong.

Grace Phan: Hello and welcome to The Editors, I'm Grace Phan in Singapore.

Tonight the changing fortunes of Anwar Ibrahim, the former deputy prime minister of Malaysia who was recently released from prison. We look at his possible impact on Malaysian politics and his mission to steer militant Muslims away from violence.

Anwar Ibrahim, former Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia: I've no qualms about or I don't need to be apologetic about the fact that I was involved in an Islamic youth movement and I think that experience has helped me tremendously in engaging with Muslim groups and Muslim parties. But militancy, violence must be condemned without reservations.

Grace Phan: September has been quite a month for Anwar Ibrahim. It began with his sudden release from prison three weeks ago; he'd spent the greater part of six years serving sentences for abuse of power and sodomy. The imprisonment was the culmination of a falling out between Anwar and the former prime minister, Dr Mahathir Mohammad. Anwar Ibrahim was once a close confidant of Mahathir and likely successor, but tensions between the two over economic policy led to Anwar's sacking and eventual jailing on what Anwar claims were trumped up charges.

This month Malaysia's Federal Court overturned the sodomy charge and Anwar flew to Germany for an operation on his back, injured he says in a beating by prison officials. From his hospital bed last week Anwar Ibrahim spoke with The Editors about plans for what he calls his reform agenda.

Anwar Ibrahim, former Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia: I'm talking about democratic institutions, independent judiciary, a free media, free and fair elections, and these I think will be my role to assist in a small way the opposition to be a cohesive compact group offering an alternative so that they will be considered as a responsible loyal opposition in a working democracy.

Grace Phan: The media heralded Anwar's release as a milestone in Malaysian politics. Star Online, based in Malaysia ran a story about Anwar headlined, "political landscape likely to change". The 'Far Eastern Economic Review' proclaimed that, "reformasi, Anwar's freedom will transform Malaysia". 'Newsweek' ran an interview with Anwar Ibrahim with the headline, "ready to get back to work". Then came the bad news, first the ruling party UMNO said it would not allow Anwar back, then last week the Malaysian Federal Court refused to hear an appeal on the abuse of power sentence which effectively barred Anwar from holding political office or being a party official until April 2008. Anwar Ibrahim was defiant.

Anwar Ibrahim: It did not come as a surprise because we know that the judiciary still remains under the thumb of the Executive, and there's nothing in law that would bar me from being active in politics. And not be allowed to contest in the elections, I think that's what their plan was, the game plan from the beginning. I would not be allowed to hold position but I'm free to present and articulate my case and pursue the agenda.

Grace Phan: The court ruling also did little to dent the enthusiasm of many Asian commentators about the impression Anwar Ibrahim is likely to make on Malaysian politics. The 'Straits Times' ran a story headed, "return of a rebel, former deputy prime minister poised to unite opposition". The following discussion was recorded prior to the court's decision; some comments therefore should be assessed in the light of Anwar's current predicament. But the discussion is valuable for what it reveals about how journalists who have followed the story believe that Anwar free of restrictions might influence Malaysian's political future.

Our commentators are political analyst MGG Pillai from Kuala Lumpur. MGG is a veteran journalist who pioneered internet journalism in Malaysia. Also from Kuala Lumpur Steven Gan, the Editor-in-chief of Malaysiakini, one of Malaysia's most popular websites, which has reported extensively on Anwar Ibrahim since his arrest. And from Hong Kong Zoher Abdoolcarim, Senior Editor of 'Time Asia'. Zoher Abdoolcarim has been following the developments in Malaysia for many years.

Gentlemen welcome to The Editors. MGG Pillai why was Anwar Ibrahim released and why now?

MGG Pillai, political commentator: That is the big 64-thousand dollar question, but it seems, but it appears that the mood has changed. For long the government has insisted that he is nobody, but he had maintained his hold on his supporters, the longer he remained in prison the more important that support base became. He remained an enigma; he was the hovering ghost, which stifled politics, which stifled just about every sector of life in the country. So it was necessary to resolve it, but I think the timing was not right. The Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi is trying to establish his hold on his political party and this one coming as it did has frustrated that. So as to why he was released I think the judges themselves were already fed up, not only the judges but just about every institution in government, the judiciary, the civil service, the armed forces, the police, as new leaders came into head their departments there was a change. The people who wanted Anwar out are no more in office, and so they wanted to sweep the slate clean. But this did not mean that no attempt was made to prevent it. Incredible pressures were brought upon the judges and others to make sure that he remained where he was. But it did not succeed for what I would say the civil servant, the judiciary and all the institutions of government had decided that he must be out and restore some semblance to Malay polity.

Zoher Abdoolcarim, Senior Editor, Time Asia: I've read the 20-thousand word verdict by the Federal Court and we're all looking at the political atmosphere and the overall atmosphere in Malaysia, but when you read the verdict it's very clear that there are very strong legal grounds for upholding the appeal and dismissing the conviction, and the crux of the verdict is that the key witness against Anwar and his adopted brother in that trial was not a reliable witness. There were a lot of contradictions in the testimony, that was evident at the time when the trial was taking place. So this is the crux of the verdict and I think we have to accept that there was strong legal grounds for upholding the appeal.

Grace Phan: Steven let me quote again from the 'Straits Times', it says, "he", referring to Anwar, "was a willing participant of the same crony politics of patronage that he subsequently lashed out at after his sacking from government". Fair comment do you think?

Steven Gan, Editor-in-chief, Malaysiakini: I think it's fair, I think even when I was journalist when Anwar was deputy prime minister I had been very critical of him when he was in power, so I think he has a lot of questions to answer relating to his own actions when he was in power. But like Badawi he did not do anything to stop Mahathir from using the ISA against political decisions, like Badawi he did not, he has stayed silent when Mahathir launched a massive attack against the judiciary and all that. So he will have to come back from his operation in Munich and tell his supporters that look, I was wrong then and I have learnt my lesson, and in that way he, that's the only way that he can move forward. But if he's going to say that then he's going to, he's really burning his bridges with UMNO. So it is a dilemma for him, but there are definitely a lot of skeletons in his closet, which somehow he will have to deal with, because then it's not just going to go away. You know like for instance in terms of cronyism and all that, in terms of his ambition to be a prime minister and willing to rule out his rivals, so I think it would help to tell in an unmistakable way to everybody that he's a changed man, that he's learnt his lesson. In fact before he joined UMNO 20 years ago he actually said that look joining UMNO to reform UMNO is like cleaning the septic tank from inside. And yes, he joined UMNO despite that. So I think it's something that they will have to learn.

Grace Phan: MGG when he was in government was Anwar a vocal advocate for reform?

MGG Pillai: No he wasn't, he had actually in fact I wrote an article about him at that time when he became deputy prime minister for which he banned me from seeing him for a few years. I had said that he fascist tendencies in his method of administration. That element of it one cannot write out, a leopard doesn't change his spots. But I think he's genuine about the need for reform, he was genuine at the time he was there, except that he couldn't move the cabinet or the government to enforce it. And I am one of those who believe that he was forced out because of a conspiracy within those in government who felt that he was asking too many of the right questions.

Zoher Abdoolcarim: Even though the sodomy conviction has been quashed his reputation has been tarnished by his time in jail, people are not hesitant to talk about as we have talked today about the fact that Anwar was not really a gung-ho reformer while in the government, that he was much more so outside. So there is, there does seem to be a sophisticated assessment of Anwar's strengths and weaknesses by Malaysians, and I really wonder whether he is, he really has so many political cards to play.

Grace Phan: Steven is Anwar Ibrahim in a position to become a major political force in Malaysia?

Steven Gan: Yes he will be a major political force in Malaysia. That's because he's able to provide some kind of unifying force within the opposition. It's not likely that he's going to go back to UMNO in the immediate term, so in that sense he will have to focus on reuniting the opposition.

Grace Phan: MGG what do you think? Will Anwar become the opposition leader or could he become the leader of the country?

MGG Pillai: I don't know if he would be an opposition leader, but he's already a political force. There was an UMNO meeting recently at which the question of money politics was discussed and while they were discussing it a chap who was not particularly aligned to him in the past got up and said the wounded tiger is out of the cage, how are you going to deal with it? I think that's the problem that UMNO and the opposition has to deal with.

Zoher Abdoolcarim: I think the key issue here really is that Anwar's release and the return to politics is going to make the political scene in Malaysia dynamic, energetic, it's going to increase, energise the debate regarding democracy, reform and make it much more multidimensional. I think the obsession in Malaysia for a long time has been one-dimensional, which is basically to economic progress, develop economically, and now you're going to have issues, you're going to have ideas debated, Islam reform, the role of government, the role of the opposition. It's just going to make Malaysia a much more multidimensional and sophisticated place.

Grace Phan: Gentlemen thank you all very much indeed, political commentator MGG Pillai from Kuala Lumpur, also from Kuala Lumpur Steven Gan, the Editor-in-chief of Malaysiakini, one of Malaysia's most popular websites, from Hong Kong, Zoher Abdoolcarim, Senior Editor of Time Asia.

Again a reminder that the comments from our panel were recorded prior to the Malaysian Federal Court's refusal to hear Anwar Ibrahim's appeal against a sentence for abuse of power, a decision which prevents him from holding political office or being a party official until 2008.

Regardless of the ruling, our commentators remain convinced that Anwar has a role to play in Malaysia, but they differ to varying degrees on whether it will be eventually with UMNO or outside the party. Anwar Ibrahim also says he wants to help reform Islamic society internationally as he explained in this interview with me from his hospital bed in Munich.

Anwar Ibrahim the 'BBC Online' points to what it calls, "your political roots in radical Islam". What are your thoughts on the rise of militant Islam in recent years?

Anwar Ibrahim, former Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia: I've no qualms about or I don't need to be apologetic about the fact that I was involved in an Islamic youth movement and I think that experience has helped me tremendously in engaging with Muslim groups and Muslim parties. But militancy, violence must be condemned without reservations. And therefore effectively we can deal with this other than the security measures is to winning the hearts and minds and to engagement with the various Muslim groups. And I think this is an area which is in deficit and is an area which I think I need to assist.

Grace Phan: Let me quote from the 'International Herald Tribune'. It says, "he has spent time in prison contemplating the division between the Islamic and Judeo-Christian worlds, he is convinced that both sides must change". Can you expand on this please?

Anwar Ibrahim: I started talking to a number of friends in the region just to seek their ideas and how we should continue this dialogue and defuse this misunderstanding and prejudice against Islam and Islamists, about getting the entire Muslim groups and parties and religious institutions to focus on more positive developments, better understanding, better tolerance.

Grace Phan: The 'Financial Times' quotes you as saying, "you'd like to play a role in Malaysia and the broader Southeast Asian region countering the rise of fanaticism, extremism and terrorism". How would you do that?

Anwar Ibrahim: The experience that I had with Islamic organisations and the engagement, the good rapport, the excellent rapport in fact with the Islamic parties and Muslim organisations within the region will help me immensely in pursuing this agenda. I think we cannot depend purely on the so-called proclaimed leaders who'd make pronouncements but have little support and participation from the Muslim masses. And therefore I would have to continue talking to leaders of various segments of the community, of religious institutions and to clearly affirm our position, I mean Islam position, reassert our identity as Muslims, reject the prejudice and unfair comments against Islam and against Muslims but at the same time be forceful, determined in rejecting fanaticism and any semblance of militancy, and condemn the violence in any form.

Grace Phan: Mr Anwar is the US war on terrorism legitimate in your view?

Anwar Ibrahim: The US war on terrorism unfortunately focus on what they perceive as Islamic terrorists. Of course this wouldn't go well to the Muslim masses. If you fight terrorism then terrorism amongst all, I mean whatever denominations or religious denominations, and you don't, this you have heard before, I mentioned to other Muslim leaders you don't talk about the Oklahoma bombing and refer to it as Christian extremist. So there is I think need to pursue it the United States, to understand the Muslim sensitivity. I agree again without the need to be apologetic that Muslims themselves must not be in a state of denial, they must be in the forefront in the war against terrorism, but we do not and we cannot assume that the position taken by the United States in articulating these issues something that is conducive or even acceptable to the Muslims. So I think we need to forge a better understanding. We are prepared to listen to the west and particularly the United States, but the United States also must be prepared to listen and adjust accordingly. The alternate interests for the sake of humanity is to combat terrorism, not to boost one's ego and to impose one's will or to act unilaterally. So I think this is something that is of concern to us when dealing with the United States war on terrorism.

Grace Phan: How do you think you would have reacted to George W. Bush's invasion of Iraq if you were prime minister of Malaysia at the time?

Anwar Ibrahim: Well of course this is not necessarily a statement that would be well received by them, but as a matter of fact I give you classic example of the atrocities by Saddam Hussein. Why should we be apologetic, why must we defend, does Islam allow repression by Muslim leaders and condemn only if this is perpetrated by foreigners? I have great difficulty in accepting, rationalizing the presence of the United States forces in Iraq because I think no, no independent person would want their country to be colonised or decided by foreign military source, but what I referred to was the utter failure of Muslims when it comes to the outright repression by Muslim leaders themselves as you see in Iraq. You see you talk about the free media in Muslim countries, you talk about freedom in Muslim countries, you talk about corruption all in the lowest list of human index.

Grace Phan: Anwar Ibrahim thank you very much indeed for joining us.

Anwar Ibrahim: Do you know, do you realise in the six years I didn't speak English. Whom do I speak to accept when I go to court or meet my lawyers? Yes, that's why you find me struggling; it's an excuse really.

Grace Phan: A much happier Anwar Ibrahim speaking with me from hospital in Munich. After the break, Hong Kong in the wake of the elections.

[The next section on the Hong Kong elections deleted

And that's The Editors for tonight. Please do visit our website at abcasiapacific.com/editors. You can check our program times and take part in our online poll, our question this week is, will Anwar Ibrahim once again be a force to be reckoned with in Malaysian politics? You can vote anytime, the results are tabulated live. The address again is, abcasiapacific.com/editors.

I'm Grace Phan in Singapore. Goodnight.   Transcripts on this website are provided by an external transcription service.

© ABC 2004